Coronavirus

Mohr zei:
Maar het gaat niet om de individuen te beschermen maar om de samenlev te beschermen, En daarvoor hebben we ziekenhuizen nodig waar we ziekyes kunnen behandelen, niet alleen Corona. De ziekenhuizen mogen niet volstromen, dat is het doel.
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When it comes to passports, the only instance I find those reasonable are in external flights, and if it's 100% proven the unvaccinated people spread the virus more. Thing is, even studies aren't clear of that. Some suggest vaccinated people spread less, others suggest they spread the same.

If even the studies aren't clear on that, I'll take the route of letting each individual protect him or herself if they want to. And - personally - I'll gladly take more risk in exchange for freedom and not living in a society where you have first or second class citizens for doing simple things like dining out.

I see lots of hypocrisy from people that act like sanitary saints today, but till two years ago couldn't give two rat ass fucks about going to work sick in an open office job. And yes, the flu is not as deadly as the corona, I get that: but it still clugged up the hospitals and killed a large amount of old people. Apparently it wasn't a problem back then for some people that now want to send unvaccinated folks to prison camps, for LitErALly killing old people.

As much as I hate our socialist Govt, they are being quite reasonable while opening things. Gladly: we need common sense.
 
ParDeTetasSLB zei:
When it comes to passports, the only instance I find those reasonable are in external flights, and if it's 100% proven the unvaccinated people spread the virus more. Thing is, even studies aren't clear of that. Some suggest vaccinated people spread less, others suggest they spread the same.

If even the studies aren't clear on that, I'll take the route of letting each individual protect him or herself if they want to. And - personally - I'll gladly take more risk in exchange for freedom and not living in a society where you have first or second class citizens for doing simple things like dining out.

I see lots of hypocrisy from people that act like sanitary saints today, but till two years ago couldn't give two rat ass fucks about going to work sick in an open office job. And yes, the flu is not as deadly as the corona, I get that: but it still clugged up the hospitals and killed a large amount of old people. Apparently it wasn't a problem back then for some people that now want to send unvaccinated folks to prison camps, for LitErALly killing old people.

As much as I hate our socialist Govt, they are being quite reasonable while opening things. Gladly: we need common sense.
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Hear, hear!
Always good to read a common sense reaction.
 
ParDeTetasSLB zei:
When it comes to passports, the only instance I find those reasonable are in external flights, and if it's 100% proven the unvaccinated people spread the virus more. Thing is, even studies aren't clear of that. Some suggest vaccinated people spread less, others suggest they spread the same.
Klik om te vergroten...
Quite the oposite, for the exact arguments you gave here: with international travel with external flights the most sensible thing would be testing if people are not carrying the virus, so not rely on vaccine passports.
 
ParDeTetasSLB zei:
When it comes to passports, the only instance I find those reasonable are in external flights, and if it's 100% proven the unvaccinated people spread the virus more. Thing is, even studies aren't clear of that. Some suggest vaccinated people spread less, others suggest they spread the same.

If even the studies aren't clear on that, I'll take the route of letting each individual protect him or herself if they want to. And - personally - I'll gladly take more risk in exchange for freedom and not living in a society where you have first or second class citizens for doing simple things like dining out.

I see lots of hypocrisy from people that act like sanitary saints today, but till two years ago couldn't give two rat ass fucks about going to work sick in an open office job. And yes, the flu is not as deadly as the corona, I get that: but it still clugged up the hospitals and killed a large amount of old people. Apparently it wasn't a problem back then for some people that now want to send unvaccinated folks to prison camps, for LitErALly killing old people.

As much as I hate our socialist Govt, they are being quite reasonable while opening things. Gladly: we need common sense.
Klik om te vergroten...
Not sure about your country. But in the Netherlands the flu is/ was a problem but not in a way that the hospitals couldn't handle it and had to delay other care. At least not in these volumes.

The studies aren't clear because there are some variables that make it hard to judge. The symptons are less severe so the particles don't spread as much. There are also less particles. But because there are less symptons people dont know they got it so go out in public. And can spread it. We cant really see data from real life because a lot of times people dont know where they got it.

I would take the risk as well (Am vaccinated, but also if I wasn't) if it was just me and my wife/ kids. But its not. It's also my parents (mother just cleared from cancer, dad with heart and long problems) and lots of other old/ sick people. The corona passport isn't my favorite measure, but its the only option I can think of at the momentwhere we can allow people to have fun without risking overcrowding the hospital. People have the option to test instead of vaccinate.

We need common sense, I agree. Arguing that unvaccinated people are send to camps doesnt belong in the common sense category, unless I have missed some news from your country.
 
Mohr zei:
Not sure about your country. But in the Netherlands the flu is/ was a problem but not in a way that the hospitals couldn't handle it and had to delay other care. At least not in these volumes.

The studies aren't clear because there are some variables that make it hard to judge. The symptons are less severe so the particles don't spread as much. There are also less particles. But because there are less symptons people dont know they got it so go out in public. And can spread it. We cant really see data from real life because a lot of times people dont know where they got it.

I would take the risk as well (Am vaccinated, but also if I wasn't) if it was just me and my wife/ kids. But its not. It's also my parents (mother just cleared from cancer, dad with heart and long problems) and lots of other old/ sick people. The corona passport isn't my favorite measure, but its the only option I can think of at the momentwhere we can allow people to have fun without risking overcrowding the hospital. People have the option to test instead of vaccinate.

We need common sense, I agree. Arguing that unvaccinated people are send to camps doesnt belong in the common sense category, unless I have missed some news from your country.
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I'm also as well vaccinated and my whole family is. As you, I have old parents as well.

"Arguing that unvaccinated people are send to camps doesnt belong in the common sense category, unless I have missed some news from your country." - I thought it was clear that I was making a funny exaggeration out of the radical stance taken by some people.

"But in the Netherlands the flu is/ was a problem but not in a way that the hospitals couldn't handle it and had to delay other care. At least not in these volumes." - I agree that corona is more serious than the flu. The flu was just an example. What I said is that the flu was problematic as well and I didn't see any concern about that whatsoever. Now the reason why I say this is that many people have the argument "Well you have that opinion because it is not YOUR parents! One life matters!" - Well it didn't matter in the past for those people. Apparently a single life coming before a reasonable common ground between the individual and the collective best interest is only a thing now.

Also another thing that must be understood is that - at least in Portugal - the number of admissions and beds taken in Hospitals during COVID were not really that far from any other year. The problem however was the logistics and preparations (having separate rooms, triage zones, protocols, etc) which led to a considerable more stressful situation. So I was absolutely even pro-lockdown back then, because it gave the health system a chance to adjust. We're in September 2021. The whole system is way more oiled up and more efficient.

If the health system didn't collapse when the pandemic was at its peak AND the capacity response at its lowest, what sense does it make to assume there's a reasonable chance that it might happen now? And... in the low chance that does happen. Let's take care of that then.

We can not live forever in fear that things might collapse. Asking people for passports for dining out when some studies suggest that unvacinnated people spread the virus as much as vaccinated, for Christ's sake. I've seen the impact this constant climate of fear took on my old folks. It's enough.

Relix zei:
Quite the oposite, for the exact arguments you gave here: with international travel with external flights the most sensible thing would be testing if people are not carrying the virus, so not rely on vaccine passports.
Klik om te vergroten...

Yes you're right.
 
Laatst bewerkt:
ParDeTetasSLB zei:
I'm also as well vaccinated and my whole family is. As you, I have old parents as well.

"Arguing that unvaccinated people are send to camps doesnt belong in the common sense category, unless I have missed some news from your country." - I thought it was clear that I was making a funny exaggeration out of the radical stance taken by some people.

"But in the Netherlands the flu is/ was a problem but not in a way that the hospitals couldn't handle it and had to delay other care. At least not in these volumes." - I agree that corona is more serious than the flu. The flu was just an example. What I said is that the flu was problematic as well and I didn't see any concern about that whatsoever. Now the reason why I say this is that many people have the argument "Well you have that opinion because it is not YOUR parents! One life matters!" - Well it didn't matter in the past for those people. Apparently a single life coming before a reasonable common ground between the individual and the collective best interest is only a thing now.

Also another thing that must be understood is that - at least in Portugal - the number of admissions and beds taken in Hospitals during COVID were not really that far from any other year. The problem however was the logistics and preparations (having separate rooms, triage zones, protocols, etc) which led to a considerable more stressful situation. So I was absolutely even pro-lockdown back then, because it gave the health system a chance to adjust. We're in September 2021. The whole system is way more oiled up and more efficient.

If the health system didn't collapse when the pandemic was at its peak AND the capacity response at its lowest, what sense does it make to assume there's a reasonable chance that it might happen now? And... in the low chance that does happen. Let's take care of that then.

We can not live forever in fear that things might collapse. Asking people for passports for dining out when some studies suggest that unvacinnated people spread the virus as much as vaccinated, for Christ's sake. I've seen the impact this constant climate of fear took on my old folks. It's enough.
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I misunderstood your comment about the camps. Glad that's cleared up (I was suprised because your posts are very reasonable so I figured it wasnt to be taken on face value)

People as a group are egocentric assholes. (look at us where we voted for our prime minister after we came to know that he lied and fucked over a part of our population.) The hypocracy you're pointing at isn't a suprise and I agree its not right. However, for me it was not really clear that the common flu killed so much. I knew it, but never really considered it. So maybe a part of this problem was the image the flew had. Lastly... I don't think people are worried about a small percentage of our people dying of Corona if the hospitals can handle the patients. I think we can accept this as a unfortunate part of life.

Here the hospitals were overcrowded. We had to make choices about who got treatment. Not just corona, but also other disseases. A lot of operations were postponed because of the preasure on the nurses and doctors. You probably have a better view at your country, but a quick google search shows you had problems as well.
pressure
triage

To concentrate on my country; I think everybody wants to go back to normal. But not so long ago we tried doing this to fast. If the system can't handle it you're to late. A large spike in patients is hard to handle in a normal situation (see the beginning of this pandamic) and we are now dealing with a backlog of "regular" patients and overworked healthcare personal. So make sure we get rid of the measures but slowly.

The corona passport is in my oppinion a good temporary measure for this. The studies are not conclusive, so why risk it? Just get tested if you don't want to vaccinate?
 
Mohr zei:
I misunderstood your comment about the camps. Glad that's cleared up (I was suprised because your posts are very reasonable so I figured it wasnt to be taken on face value)

People as a group are egocentric assholes. (look at us where we voted for our prime minister after we came to know that he lied and fucked over a part of our population.) The hypocracy you're pointing at isn't a suprise and I agree its not right. However, for me it was not really clear that the common flu killed so much. I knew it, but never really considered it. So maybe a part of this problem was the image the flew had. Lastly... I don't think people are worried about a small percentage of our people dying of Corona if the hospitals can handle the patients. I think we can accept this as a unfortunate part of life.

Here the hospitals were overcrowded. We had to make choices about who got treatment. Not just corona, but also other disseases. A lot of operations were postponed because of the preasure on the nurses and doctors. You probably have a better view at your country, but a quick google search shows you had problems as well.
pressure
triage

To concentrate on my country; I think everybody wants to go back to normal. But not so long ago we tried doing this to fast. If the system can't handle it you're to late. A large spike in patients is hard to handle in a normal situation (see the beginning of this pandamic) and we are now dealing with a backlog of "regular" patients and overworked healthcare personal. So make sure we get rid of the measures but slowly.

The corona passport is in my oppinion a good temporary measure for this. The studies are not conclusive, so why risk it? Just get tested if you don't want to vaccinate?
Klik om te vergroten...
And, at the moment the hospitals here are still busy with all the thing the could not do in the last year, so don't take the risk that all the capacity of hospitals go to covid, there is (sadly) al lot more to do in the hospitals.
 
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